Interview published in Le Figaro Madame on December 25, 2010 —
Comments collected by Dalila Kerchouche —
More than 3 million viewers have seen "Of Gods and Men," Xavier Beauvois's film. Does this surprise 2010 hit reveal a thirst for spirituality? Two experts, philosopher Frédéric Lenoir* and cartoonist and filmmaker Joann Sfar**, explore the new paths of faith.
Madame Figaro. – “Of Gods and Men” attracted a very wide audience this fall: atheists, agnostics, believers of all faiths… What do you think?
Frédéric Lenoir. – I’m delighted! This film describes the life of the Trappist monks of Tibhirine, who lived in harmony with the Algerian population. It gives us a positive image of the encounter between Christians and Muslims. It shows that cohabitation is possible from the moment people know each other, when tolerance is based on friendship. Faced with rising community tensions, it is an antidote to the fear of the other.
Joann Sfar. – I agree with you. I’m tired of people constantly harping on the differences between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I prefer to talk about what we have in common. It's no coincidence that films today are titled "Of Gods and Men," "The Prophet," and "The Rabbi's Cat." Filmmakers are trying to move beyond the vision of the clash of civilizations. I also believe that audiences need to be moved by something other than a football match.
Madame Figaro. – While our lives are accelerating, why is such a slow film so captivating?
Frédéric Lenoir. – Precisely because it forces us to slow down! The long shots linger on the faces. The camera movements give us time to empathize with the monks, to enter into ourselves. When I saw it at the cinema, at the end of the screening, the audience remained in the room for a good ten minutes, in silence, without moving, as if to prolong this depth. It was a moment of communion.
Joann Sfar . – We too often forget to what extent art also brings transcendence!
Madame Figaro. – Another success of the time: meditation courses, pilgrimages, and retreats in monasteries. Where does this thirst for spirituality come from?
Joann Sfar. – No matter how hard we try to prove that God doesn't exist, people will continue to pray. This need for contemplation is ingrained in us. Thus, there is an extraordinary word in Spanish. People painted by El Greco, who have white, rolling eyes, are said to be "ensimismados" (they look inside themselves).
Frédéric Lenoir. – But be careful not to reduce this thirst for spirituality to religion! It goes beyond that. Today, the great religion is money. And the high priests, the advertisers, who hammer us with the idea that happiness comes from the accumulation of objects or a dominant social position. This is false. You can be rich and famous, and still be unhappy or a bastard. Now, succeeding in life means having a right relationship with yourself and with others; it means being useful to society. The spiritual quest is first and foremost a quest for meaning. And also a means of reconciliation with yourself.
Madame Figaro. – Are you both believers?
Joann Sfar . – I have a problem: I am a practicing non-believer. I love to pray – I even genuflected in a Japanese temple! As a child, when I arrived late for Shabbat meals, my grandmother would say: “What matters is not the rabbi’s speech, it’s having a hot meal.” I like rituals when they connect us to one another. But I can’t take them seriously. For me, it’s all just a game.
Frédéric Lenoir. – The distinction between believer and non-believer no longer really makes sense today. I have trouble using the word "God," this God of religions who has given us so many wars. But I have faith in life. Like the Stoics, I believe there is an invisible force that governs the world and a goodness that surpasses us. Basically, all spirituality boils down to loving life.
Joann Sfar. – It's annoying, we agree on everything! In "The Rabbi's Cat," an old Jew refuses to convert the cat to Judaism. He then explains to it who God is for three hours. At the end, the cat replies: "That's exactly what I feel for my mistress!"
Madame Figaro. – What was your spiritual cradle?
Joann Sfar. – My mother died before I was 4 years old. From then on, I no longer believed in anything. I received a traditional Jewish education, studied the Talmud and mysticism. Although a rabbi by training, my maternal grandfather taught me doubt and rebellion, because his family had disappeared in the camps. God, for me, was a bit like Santa Claus. At the same time, I have always been very moved by men in prayer, because I see in them a sign of humility and dismay. I have nothing against religions, but everything against hypocrites.
Frédéric Lenoir. – Raised in a Catholic family, I perceived, like you, Joann, a lot of hypocrisy among the clergy. And all this pomp and circumstance of the Vatican gave me the impression of a Grand Guignol.
Madame Figaro. – Yet, the majority of both of your writings are steeped in spirituality!
Joann Sfar . – I came back to it through drawing. For me, it is a true prayer, a way of entering into myself, a love letter to others and to the world. Following my studies, I participated in autopsies in forensic medicine classes. I drew bones and muscles. When I left, I felt like meat. Then, I would draw children playing with their mothers in public gardens. I was moved and fascinated by the mystery of the soul that sets us in motion.
Frédéric Lenoir. – My path was more winding. At 15, I discovered Socrates and philosophy, which led me to question the soul, and thus to return to spirituality. Then, drawn to Buddhism, I began meditation, which I have practiced for 25 years. Finally, at 19, I read the Gospels. And there, I was shocked to discover Christ. First, because he denounces religious hypocrisy. And second, because he develops two essential values: freedom and love. Today, I call myself a Christian because I adhere to this message.
Madame Figaro. – Frédéric, in your latest book, you attempt to reconcile spirituality and introspection. Why?
Frédéric Lenoir. – Because spirituality does not exist outside of interiority. Otherwise, we fall into ideology. In this “Short Treatise on Interior Life,” I wanted to unify mystical experience, depth psychology, and philosophy, because they tell us the same thing about the human being. About his contradictions, his dark sides, and the forces of goodness buried in the heart of every human being. We must learn to know and love ourselves. Whether we are believers or atheists, this is the starting point of the spiritual quest.
Joann Sfar. – I liked your book because you take a loving and critical look at religious thought. Which is what I try to do through humor.
Madame Figaro. – How do I talk to children about it?
Frédéric Lenoir. – By trying to convey a testimony. To maintain consistency between our words and our actions. If we tell them “God is love” or “Love your neighbor,” let’s show them that we are capable of forgiving. From the age of 3, children ask eminently spiritual questions: “Who is God?” “What is death?” We must say what we believe and demonstrate it through actions, not deliver a dogmatic discourse.
Joann Sfar. – For me, it’s a real struggle. Children’s literature forbids children from not believing. There are tons of books about Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, or Buddha. But none of them are titled “Perhaps God Doesn’t Exist.” Today, when one of my children asks, “Where do the dead go?” I reply, “I don’t know.” I don’t tell them there is nothing after death. But I don't feel able to tell him something I'm not sure of.
Madame Figaro. – Does Christmas still have any meaning for you?
Frédéric Lenoir. – Of course! Even though we know perfectly well that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. Christmas was a pagan holiday that was Christianized in the 4th century, marking the lengthening of the days, the rebirth of light, the victory of the sun. Today, it is obviously ultra-commercial. But for me, as for many, it is above all a family celebration, where ties are strengthened. It is important to maintain rituals, even secular ones, even if they have lost their religious meaning.
Joann Sfar. – At home, Christmas is very colorful. Our nativity scene is Martinican, with a little black Jesus. In my wife's family, academics and Christians of Lithuanian origin, we prepare thirteen desserts, poppy soup, and we put herbs under the tablecloths. And when Christmas falls on Shabbat, I celebrate both. The more holidays there are, the happier I am.
* Quick Bio Frédéric Lenoir
Coming from a family of social Christians – his father was Secretary of State for Social Action under Giscard – this philosopher and writer was interested in Kabbalah, Sufism, Taoism, Buddhism… Author of several bestsellers, he is now editor of “Le Monde des religions”. And has just published “Petit Traité de vie intérieure” (Plon editions), a profound and enlightening book.
** Quick Bio Joann Sfar
This comic book author is a connoisseur of the Talmud and Jewish mysticism. He drew inspiration from this to write his cult comic book, "The Rabbi's Cat" (Gallimard BD), with its caustic humor, which has sold 1 million copies. Known for his film "Gainsbourg (Heroic Life)", this multi-talented artist is now adapting "The Rabbi's Cat" for the cinema (released June 1, 2011).