Interview published in Le Figaro Madame on December 25, 2010 —
Interview by Dalila Kerchouche —
More than 3 million viewers saw "Of Gods and Men," Xavier Beauvois' film. Does this surprise hit of 2010 reveal a thirst for spirituality? Two experts, philosopher Frédéric Lenoir* and cartoonist and filmmaker Joann Sfar**, explore new paths of faith.
Madame Figaro: "Of Gods and Men" drew a very wide audience this fall: atheists, agnostics, believers of all faiths… What do you think of it?
Frédéric Lenoir : I'm delighted! This film depicts the lives of the Trappist monks of Tibhirine, who lived in harmony with the Algerian population. It gives us a positive image of the encounter between Christians and Muslims. It shows that coexistence is possible as long as people know each other, as long as tolerance is based on friendship. Faced with rising communal tensions, it is an antidote to the fear of the other.
Joann Sfar: I agree with you. I'm tired of constantly rehashing the differences between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I prefer to talk about what we have in common. It's no coincidence that films today are titled "Of Gods and Men," "The Prophet," and "The Rabbi's Cat." Filmmakers are trying to move beyond the clash of civilizations narrative. I also believe that audiences need to be moved by something other than a football match.
Madame Figaro: While our lives are accelerating, why is such a slow film so captivating?
Frédéric Lenoir: Precisely because it forces us to slow down! The long takes linger on faces. The camera movements give us time to empathize with the monks, to look inward. When I saw it in the cinema, at the end of the screening, the audience remained in the theater for a good ten minutes, in silence, without moving, as if to prolong this depth. It was a moment of communion.
Joann Sfar : We too often forget how much art also brings transcendence!
Madame Figaro: Another success of the era was that of meditation courses, pilgrimages, and retreats in monasteries. Where does this thirst for spirituality come from?
Joann Sfar: No matter how many times we try to prove that God doesn't exist, people will continue to pray. This need for contemplation is deeply rooted in us. For example, there's an extraordinary word in Spanish. Figures painted by El Greco, with white, almost rolled-back eyes, are said to be "ensimismados" (they are looking inward).
Frédéric Lenoir: But be careful not to reduce this thirst for spirituality to religion! It goes beyond that. Today, the great religion is money. And the high priests, the advertisers, bombard us with the idea that happiness comes from accumulating objects or from a dominant social position. That's false. You can be rich and famous, and still be unhappy or a scoundrel. But to succeed in life is to have a right relationship with oneself and with others, to be useful to society. The spiritual quest is first and foremost a quest for meaning. And also a means of reconciliation with oneself.
Madame Figaro: Are you both believers?
Joann Sfar : I have a problem: I'm a practicing non-believer. I love to pray—I've even done genuflections in a Japanese temple! As a child, when I arrived late for the Shabbat meal, my grandmother would say, "What matters isn't the rabbi's sermon, it's eating something hot." I like rituals when they connect us to one another. But I can't take them seriously. For me, it all remains a game.
Frédéric Lenoir: The distinction between believer and non-believer doesn't really make sense anymore. I have trouble using the word "God," this God of religions who has given us so many wars. But I have faith in life. Like the Stoics, I believe there is an invisible force that governs the world and a goodness that transcends us. Ultimately, all spirituality boils down to loving life.
Joann Sfar: It's annoying, we agree on everything! In "The Rabbi's Cat," an old Jewish man refuses to convert the cat to Judaism. He then explains to the cat who God is for three hours. At the end, the cat replies: "That's exactly how I feel about my mistress!"
Madame Figaro: What was your spiritual upbringing?
Joann Sfar: My mother died before I was four. From then on, I didn't believe in anything. I received a traditional Jewish education, studied the Talmud and mysticism. Although trained as a rabbi, my maternal grandfather taught me doubt and rebellion, because his family had perished in the camps. For me, God was a bit like Santa Claus. At the same time, I've always been deeply moved by people praying, because I see in it a sign of humility and despair. I have nothing against religions, but everything against hypocrites.
Frédéric Lenoir. – Raised in a Catholic family, I perceived, like you, Joann, a great deal of hypocrisy among the clergy. And all that Vatican pomp and circumstance gave me the impression of a grand Guignol.
Madame Figaro. – Yet, most of your writing is steeped in spirituality!
Joann Sfar . – I returned to it through drawing. For me, it's a true prayer, a way of entering into myself, a love letter to others and to the world. After my studies, I participated in autopsies during forensic medicine courses. I drew bones and muscles. Leaving the room, I felt like I was just a piece of meat. Then, I would go and draw children playing with their mothers in public parks. I was moved and fascinated by the mystery of the soul that sets us in motion.
Frédéric Lenoir – My path was more winding. At 15, I discovered Socrates and philosophy, which led me to question the soul, and thus to return to spirituality. Then, drawn to Buddhism, I began to practice meditation, which I have been doing for 25 years. Finally, at 19, I read the Gospels. And there, I was deeply moved by discovering Christ. First, because he denounces religious hypocrisy. And second, because he develops two essential values: freedom and love. Today, I call myself a Christian because I subscribe to this message.
Madame Figaro: Frédéric , in your latest book, you attempt to reconcile spirituality and introspection. Why?
Frédéric Lenoir: Because spirituality doesn't exist outside of inner life. Otherwise, we fall into ideology. In this "Little Treatise on Inner Life," I wanted to unify mystical experience, depth psychology, and philosophy, because they all tell us the same thing about human beings: their contradictions, their shadow sides, and the forces of goodness buried in the heart of every human being. We must learn to know and love ourselves. Whether we are believers or atheists, this is the starting point of the spiritual quest.
Joann Sfar: I liked your book because you take a loving yet critical look at religious thought. Which is what I try to do myself through humor.
Madame Figaro: How do you talk to children about it?
Frédéric Lenoir: By trying to pass on a testimony. By maintaining consistency between our words and our actions. If we tell them "God is love" or "Love thy neighbor," let's show them that we are capable of forgiveness. From the age of three, children ask profoundly spiritual questions: "Who is God?" "What is death?" We must say what we believe and bear witness to it through our actions, not bombard them with dogmatic pronouncements.
Joann Sfar: For me, it's a real struggle. Children's literature forbids children from not believing. There are tons of books about Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, or Buddha. But none of them is titled "Maybe God Doesn't Exist." Today, when one of my children asks, "Where do the dead go?" I answer, "I don't know." I don't tell them that there's nothing after death. But I don't feel capable of stating something to her that I'm not sure of.
Madame Figaro. – Does Christmas still have meaning for you?
Frédéric Lenoir. – Of course! Even though we know perfectly well that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. Christmas was a pagan festival that was Christianized in the 4th century, marking the lengthening of days, the rebirth of light, the victory of the sun. Today, it's obviously ultra-commercial. But for me, as for many, it's first and foremost a family celebration, where bonds are strengthened. It's important to keep rituals, even secular ones, even if they've lost their religious meaning.
Joann Sfar. – At my house, Christmas is very colorful. Our nativity scene is from Martinique, with a little Black Jesus. In my wife's family, academics and Christians of Lithuanian origin, we prepare thirteen desserts, poppy seed soup, and we put herbs under the tablecloths. And when Christmas falls on a Sabbath day, I celebrate both. The more holidays there are, the happier I am.
* Frédéric Lenoir's Brief Biography:
Born into a family of social Christians – his father was Secretary of State for Social Action under Giscard d'Estaing – this philosopher and writer has explored Kabbalah, Sufism, Taoism, and Buddhism. Author of several bestsellers, he currently heads the editorial team of "Le Monde des Religions" (The World of Religions). He has just published "Petit Traité de vie intérieure" (A Short Treatise on Inner Life) (Plon), a profound and insightful book.
** Joann Sfar's Brief Biography:
This comic book author is a connoisseur of the Talmud and Jewish mysticism. He drew inspiration from them to write his cult comic, "The Rabbi's Cat" (published by Gallimard BD), a work of corrosive humor that has sold 1 million copies. Known for his film "Gainsbourg (A Heroic Life)," this multi-talented artist is now adapting "The Rabbi's Cat" for the big screen (released June 1, 2011).